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 Post subject: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:00 am 
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I was just wondering if any reputable breeder that has the intentions of improving their breed ever deliberately choose to start a program outside of AKC stock.

We've been told over and over again, AKC paperwork doesn't guarantee the quality of the dog, just the lineage.. and even that could be questionable, since we rely heavily on the honor system.

Some of these other registries have different values and intentions for the breed than the AKC.. which isn't always a bad thing. Some of them have been around almost as long. A lot of them have closed registries, just like the AKC.

I know a lot of people will say, ACA/NKC/CKC are puppy mill registries.. my response would be, the AKC is the largest dog registry in the world, do you really think all 500k breeders are showing these dogs, breeding for conformation or to improve health, etc? It's not a valid reason to NOT use these registries, in my book.

Most of them have dog shows, competitions, breed standards, a mission goal. Are their champions in some way less than the AKC's?

I ask this because I am thinking about starting a small, specialized breeding program.. but my personal opinion of the AKC is very low, and I don't think every breeder who touts AKC puppies is superior to those with ACA or UKC paperwork.

Are there any other spaniel breeders out there who chose to begin their program with non-AKC stock? What was the reason behind why you did it?

I hope it wasn't because the registration fees were lower or some reason like that..

Mine would be because I feel like the AKC is too full of politics, focuses too much on physical conformation or over standardization of the breed, etc.

I know no matter how much I try to explain it to people, if I walk around with an ACA finished champion, there will be folks who think they're subpar to AKC dogs.

My close friend is beginning a basset breeding program.. her foundation bitch has a gruesome underbite. I asked her why she picked that one, she said because it was cheaper. I asked, why would you breed her when her standard is to not have an underbite? She said, people will still want the puppies. So basically a BYB who didn't care enough to limit registration on his puppies with problems like an underbite, and my friend is just going to keep on doing it..

I know these are problems happening everywhere, in every registry.. it's just food for thought I suppose. Please don't hate me because I'm anti-AKC! I've never bred before and not even sure I ever will, I just get frustrated with people who think dogs outside of the AKC have no merit..


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 Post subject: Re: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:44 am 
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Do the other registries you're talking about promote testing of hips, eyes, etc. before breeding? :dk

I'm sorry, I don't breed, but am a huge advocate of the AKC. :th-up

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 Post subject: Re: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:01 am 
I wouldn't need to, but if I did, I would say no. AKC has it's problems, and yes they are a puppy mill registry too, but why do you think these other registries popped up? AKC suspended the privileges of many breeders who weren't in compliance with their standards of care.

And yes, I think champions in other registries are sub par to AKC champions. The requirements to obtain a championship aren't nearly as hard as it is to obtain an AKC championship. You don't even have to have competition in many of them.


I'm confused about this statement. To me it equates as the same thing.

Mine would be because I feel like the AKC is too full of politics, focuses too much on physical conformation or over standardization of the breed, etc.


Is the reason you want to start with an registry other than AKC because you can't obtain a quality dog for breeding purposes?


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 Post subject: Re: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:49 am 
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No, it's not that I couldn't obtain AKC "quality" dogs to begin my breeding program. The cocker I have now is AKC and has some good bloodlines. She's also my best friend.

Do you know for a fact it's easier to get a championship from a different registry?

Some of these registries began because they have a different goal for dogs than the AKC does. UKC for example "we focus on the DOG rather than the SHOW" which I do not feel the AKC does at all.. seems like it's much more about the show than anything.

I also have some specific things I'm looking for in my foundation stock.. for instance I don't like overly plush heads on cockers, nor do I really like the very domed or rounded heads, so I want to try to find something in the middle. A lot of AKC breeders are producing cockers with very goggled eyes and narrow maw, giving them a kind of chihuahua like look.

I've compared some puppies and adult dogs I've seen that were AKC and ACA and UKC and I can often find dogs all across that are equal quality.. so once again I'm not convinced that the AKC produces better animals.

I haven't decided to start breeding, though I do have specific ideas about what I would be trying to achieve if I did..

Also - I don't think they require OFA or CERF testing, but if I did go with another registry, i'd do this regardless. I wasn't under the understanding that the AKC required this testing either.


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 Post subject: Re: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:56 pm 
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'cause you know I can't already walk into any petstore and find a cocker spaniel puppy. Irregardless of the registry you chose there is no deficit of puppies out there all ready. Sounds to me more like you want to make a little money and are just looking for a little pat on the back and a go ahead nod. Not here, not from me. Go take a look in any rescue out there, any city pound, any shelter and look at all the dogs sitting there waiting for non existant homes and ask why do you feel the need to bring more into this world. There are so many cockers in Los Angeles in the system that it is shameful to even begin thinking of adding more puppies out there. Even the greatest breeders and god bless those that do it right, can't 100% garuntee that their dogs won't end up rehomed or in the system at some point in their life.


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 Post subject: Re: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:23 am 
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That really wasn't what I'm trying to do, and sorry you get that notion. Breeding, for me, would be many years away, if it happens at all. I was kind of looking for opinions, wondering if it would be worth it to vest any time or effort into the other registries.. I'm thinking not. Whether or not the dogs are superb, people just won't think so.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.. I love my cocker and would never breed her just to 'make a little money.'


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 Post subject: Re: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:14 am 
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My personal opinion and difference between the AKC & the "other registries" is that the AKC works closely with the breed Parent Clubs and the other registries don't. Anyone can start a registry, buy a fancy printer and start issuing registrations and certificates. The AKC however is dictated by the Individual Breed Parent Clubs. Ours being The American Spaniel Club which is run by Fanciers & Owners of our breed. So, it gives each breed the chance to have some say into what goes on within the breed. Not just a bunch of people sitting in an office somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:04 pm 
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I'd be very interested in knowing which other registries within the US have closed registry books, that support good breeding and provide valuable championship titles? Do those registries NOT register designer dogs, such as cockapoos? What kind of proof of DNA testing is required for registry with those groups? I am familiar with the UKC (who will register dogs if provided an official pedigree only from certain registries, including the AKC), but not any others. And none that I would choose my breeding stock from.

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 Post subject: Re: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:08 pm 
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Quote:
A lot of AKC breeders are producing cockers with very goggled eyes and narrow maw, giving them a kind of chihuahua like look.


I don't agree with this . . . there are some producing Cockers with prominent eyes, but I don't see a lot of narrow muzzles/jaws that are giving Cockers a chihuahua type of look. You might have to spend some time digging to find them, but there are Cocker breeders out there breeding a more "Sporty" type of dog, with a more correct head. Julie's dogs (poster above) are not plush-headed dogs that couldn't function in the field. They have good, strong heads, with nice, broad muzzles.

Heads can be changed in one generation, typically. I'd be a LOT more worried about front end construction, which is an issue in our breed, along with over-angulated rears. Those are far more problematic than plush heads.

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 Post subject: Re: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:12 pm 
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I knew that someone like Kelly who is much more knowledgable than myself about the conformation of Cockers would chime in with her wealth of information. :Clap

She's absolutely correct about Julie's dogs. :nw

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 Post subject: Re: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:51 am 
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I don't think any of them work with the ASC, but I do know that at least the UKC's books are closed.

Anyway, you guys have convinced me away from non-AKC registeries.

It's definitely something I need to explore more. It's been helpful to hear from actual breeders & people showing dogs.

I think breeding - the right way - is a lot of work and takes a special kind of person.


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 Post subject: Re: Any breeders deliberately choose non-AKC stock?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:52 pm 
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Not Cocker Spaniels but some other working breeds have their own registries for example Pointers had the Field Dog Stud Book and even though Border Collies are now AKC registrable, some of the working people do not plan to go with AKC but are sticking with their own registry. I know that a bunch of fake registries were created to lend legitimacy to designer "breeds".

Linda


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