The Zim Family Cocker Spaniel Forum

I got a cocker puppy, now about 8 1/2 months old. I was told by his breeder that he had champion bloodlines. I am debating whether to get him fixed, or keep him as a stud. how can I find out how good his breeding is? I have his papers to get him registered, with 3 generations of his lineage included. I have googled each name on the AKC paper, and nothing comes up. Is this breeding feeding me a line?

Neuter. Just because the dog has a nice pedigree doesn't mean they should be bred. It takes a long time to learn how to bred correctly, the standard, health testing required, how to maintain a pregnant bitch, then whelping and raising a litter. In all seriousness since you have a male the only person that will bred to him is some BYB that knows absolutely nothing about any of which I just mentioned.


Oh and to answer your question about the breeder, if you have a nice pedigree you should have CH. in front of the dogs names on the pedigree. We've had many pups with great pedigree's, and you tell people that, but we also tell them why we decided not to keep this certain dog and why they are not to be used for breeding. We never sell a pup on full registration. A responsible breeder always places a dog on a spay/neuter contract.

Champion bloodlines mean that at least one dog at some point in the ancestry of this dog got a Ch. It is a selling point with regards to getting a puppy from that line and says nothing about the suitability of this particular puppy for breeding. Frankly, even many puppy mill dogs have a dog with a Ch somewhere in their bloodlines and therefore have champion bloodlines - it was just a long time ago.

Did the breeder want to possibly use the puppy in their own breeding program if he turns out well? Or did they lead you to believe that other breeders would be knocking on your door hoping to use this puppy as a stud dog?

If it is the latter case, do you know anything about the health and temperaments of the other puppies from this litter? Are you willing to research (by contacting the owners, not doing google searches) the dogs in his pedigree and find out what sort of puppies they produce and if there are any health issues? Are you willing to pay for special eye exams and xrays and DNA tests to examine your puppy's hips and knees and to see if he carries any genetic disorders before breeding him? (he doesn't have to be sick himself in order to carry a disease he could pass on to off spring) Have you asked yourself what special qualities this puppy has that would make breeders contact you to use him as a stud dog when there are thousands of other male cockers out there that are possible stud dogs?

Just go to the rescue section to see the results of not neutering. But another important reason is for the health of your baby-neutered dogs are less prone to health issues down the road, and you won't have to deal with marking!

Please be a responsible pet owner and neuter.

Neuter. I am not sure why the breeder did not write this in the contract or do so before rehoming him. No question!

My male came from champion blood lines as well - within the last 2 or 3 generations (can't remember and I don't have his pedigree with me right now). Some of his ancestors were even health tested. I considered breeding him prior to becoming a member of this forum. After some education and careful thought I decided passing on his behavioral issues (he is severely shy/scared) was not a good idea. I'm not even sure if the behavioral issues can be attributed to his genetics, but I'm not willing to take the chance.

Even after that decision, I wasn't sure I wanted to get him fixed. God made the decision to fix him very easy. Jack had an enlarged prostate when he was less than a year old. If he were not fixed he was very likely to develop prostate cancer. He was already at risk and my vet was not 100% certain fixing him would "fix" his prostate. We got lucky. His prostate has remained normal, but it will always be a concern.

In order to make an informed decision, you can register your male and research his pedigree. I have went through Jack's with a fine tooth comb...mostly out of curiousity. If your male does come from lines with health testing, then start researching the temperament of the ancestors. Maybe you did fall on a dog with all the right attributes for breeding (health tested lines with proven conformation and temperament), but do you want to take the risk of prostate cancer and other health issues? Can you handle him marking your couch, walls, beds, etc.?

Above all of this, what is your motivation to breed? Do you want to better the breed, to make money, or to create a "copy" of your wonderful dog?

- There is no money in breeding the "right" way (health testing). I have 3 dogs with health issues known to be passed down through genetics (Jack had a partially torn ACL which will most likely tear again and require surgery, Paisley has bilateral luxating patellas which will eventually require surgery, Lilly is prone to cherry eye and has had 2 surgeries to date and we may need one more, and all three have allergies). Keeping them healthy has cost me a lot of time, money, and heartache. I beg of you not to breed dogs without health testing. I wouldn't trade my babies for anything, but I wish they had more of an opportunity to be healthy dogs. It sucks to watch them suffer.

- There is no such thing as a "copy" of your dog. Just like people, every dog is different. There are thousands of wonderful dogs sitting in shelters fighting for their lives.

- If you want to better the breed and think your male can help accomplish that goal, GREAT! Get together with some experienced breeders who health test and start learning.

I get the impression most breeders over there only sell on neuter terms, so you might have been fed a line. Of course you don't have to neuter him just because you don't want to breed from him - there are plenty of unneutered pet dogs in the UK and we don't have much trouble. But we don't have as many dogs allowed to run loose I guess - not that I'm saying your baby is!

I curious why you would want to breed him?

Lucy,

I thought most breeder sell with limited registration under the spay/neuter contracts too. Man, I was so wrong. My puppy, the one that rescued because she was hit by a car, came with a FULL AKC registration. There were some people that was trying to convince Terri that Coco (my Cherry) could be fixed later after she left the rescue so that she could "grow up properly". I reminded Terri of a specific horror story of people breeding a unfixed rescued bitch and that changed her mind. Coco was fixed during her second surgery for her broken femur.

Technically, Coco is from a "champion" bloodline too (all well known show dogs five generations ago, 2 CH on the pedigree paper, and the sire is littermate to one often used show dog in this area.) But that really means nothing to me and her pedigree is definitely not impressive.

Well, because of fate, Coco became our Cherry. We were not looking for another dog, let alone a pup. Terri did twist our arms into taking Cherry. And the fact that she is incredibly cute helps too. She was growing prettier and prettier day-by-day. I am so glad that we had her fixed earlier that I don't need to face the temptation.

And it turns out that she has bilateral luxating patella on her right knee and a degree 1 luxation in her left. The right requires surgery. And Cherry is also very dominant. She is small, but she is Alpha at day care at 8 months of age.

She is definitely a product of somebody who wants to create off springs of their bitch, with absolutely no ill intent. Her patella will cost $2200 to fix and I have to keep training her in obedience so that she and Heidi can co-exist in peace. Training is not cheap either. We love her and will protect her no matter what.

And to my surprise, the FULL registration thing seems to be very common amongst BYBs.

To Val, my recommendation is "Please neuter".

Nueter
Even if your dog is sired by champions or even grand champions and your dog has gone through all the work of becoming a champion himself, you don't necessarily want to breed them. Breeding must be done for the benefit of the breed... Dogs should pass their CERF, OFA and maybe a few other tests before you breed them. Sometimes even champion dogs are neutered because they don't pass their tests... breeding is serious and should not be taken lightly, especially for cockers since some of them carry genetic diseases that we don't want passed down.