The Zim Family Cocker Spaniel Forum

The Internet's Most Popular Cocker Spaniel Community
Click here to go to the main Zim Family Cockers web site

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:10 am 
Offline
Active Forum Member
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:12 am
Posts: 37
Found a sweeeeeet looking puppy on the internet (I know, not the best place to buy, but I was just looking). The seller (who initially bought her to breed but decided against it eventually) wants to sell her because she already has 3 other dogs. She says this one is likely to be around 12 pounds? Something about her friend breeds "small" cockers. Never heard of that before, but my Gertie was a runt who averaged about 20-22 pounds fully grown, so if she's going by her size now (4 months old) I'm not too concerned. She's a sweet looking girl and, after having my Gertie, if there's a chance she's going to be a mutant too, must be fate that I found her. LOL Any input?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:16 am 
Offline
I Rescue Cockers
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:52 am
Posts: 2993
Location: Westchester, NY
Rose wrote:
Found a sweeeeeet looking puppy on the internet (I know, not the best place to buy, but I was just looking). The seller (who initially bought her to breed but decided against it eventually) wants to sell her because she already has 3 other dogs. She says this one is likely to be around 12 pounds? Something about her friend breeds "small" cockers. Never heard of that before, but my Gertie was a runt who averaged about 20-22 pounds fully grown, so if she's going by her size now (4 months old) I'm not too concerned. She's a sweet looking girl and, after having my Gertie, if there's a chance she's going to be a mutant too, must be fate that I found her. LOL Any input?


There was a thread on here a while ago about mini cockers being some newly advertized breeding. The supposition was that if the parents are smaller the offspring will be smaller (which as we all know is NOT a given). You may want to search for that thread or perhaps someone here has that link. I have more of an issue with people that advertize on the internet and promise something they cannot guarentee. Did they say the dogs were health tested? If they "ship" pups that's another big red flag.

_________________
Teddy - 11/11/03
Annie - 2/13/05
Jennie - Gotcha 9/14/11
Cody - 9/2/08
Monkey Cat - 1993 - 2013
Cori - My First - 1/2/91 - 12/15/03
Maxine - My Angel - Gotcha - 9/5/09 - 7/28/11
Maddie - Good Boy - Gotcha 6/17/12 - 7/25/13


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:10 am 
Offline
Forum Legend
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:33 pm
Posts: 959
Location: Morenci, Michigan
When we "RESCUED" Leo the "BREEDER" was advertising "miniature sable cockers"..... Leo weighed 12 lbs. at two years old, when we got him, but, He was in really bad shape, now at seven years old is a very healthy 21 lbs he is smaller than Buddy who is an English Cocker who weighs a solid 30 lbs. both have no excess fat.

_________________
LOVE A RESCUED COCKER!
Proud Parents of:
BUDDY [English Black & Tan]
LEO White Lighter [Parti-SABLE]


Cockers: At The Rainbow Bridge...
Ch. Prince Tom's Sugar Crisp (Crispy),
Ch. Luc-Kee Prince Bondee, Taffee & Baron
Akita's: Sachi & Sake


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:32 am 
Offline
Active Forum Member
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:05 pm
Posts: 287
I've heard of this much as you hear of "teacup" poodles, not really a breed. Some irresponsible breeders simply take two smaller dogs and breed them and then advertise pups as "mini" whatever breed. It cannot be guaranteed that they will stay small though they may be smaller. I would want to find a breeder that concentrates on temperment and health issues rather than size. Just my take on this.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:37 am 
Offline
I Rescue Cockers
 Profile

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:27 am
Posts: 1704
Please don't fall for that internet sale of dogs. Why would you want a 12 lb cocker? If you want a smaller dog, perhaps consider a different breed, i.e. cavalier, rat terrier, etc. If you aren't sure what you are searching for, perhaps the local rescue can assist you.

_________________
Deborah in South Carolina

Hannah-black/white, 06/01/02
Tonka-black/tan, 04/24/13
Roxi-Boston terrier, 05/28/2007 (grand dog)

Tucker-blue roan and tan, 10/24/02-02/12/13 (rest in peace sweet boy)

"Cockers make my heart smile."


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:48 am 
Offline
Active Forum Member
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:12 am
Posts: 37
Deborah wrote:
Please don't fall for that internet sale of dogs. Why would you want a 12 lb cocker? If you want a smaller dog, perhaps consider a different breed, i.e. cavalier, rat terrier, etc. If you aren't sure what you are searching for, perhaps the local rescue can assist you.


I'm not looking for a small dog, I'm looking for a cocker, I just wondered if anyone has heard about breeding smaller cockers. Anything I've read on it says it's really a crap shoot as to whether or not the dog stays small. Just talked to the seller who said the friend she bought it from just breeds smaller cockers (average 15-20 pounds). It's not the size I'm concerned about, I just thought she was too sweet to not check out.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:09 am 
Offline
I Rescued A Cocker!
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:05 am
Posts: 790
Location: Minneapolis
I'm sure I'm not the only one here with a little Cocker - Penny weighs in at just over 13 pounds at about 3 years of age. And Isabel ran around 15 during the three years I had her, from age 3 to 6. I adopted both girls from rescue as adults, so there's no telling what their breeding might have been, but certainly they may not have been well-nourished as pups.

_________________
Penny
Rosie the Cat

Forever in our hearts: Isabel, Joey and Bear


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:02 am 
Offline
Forum Legend
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 3277
Rose: Please don't take this the wrong way because I don't intend to be judgmental with what I'm going to say. It sounds like this person is not near you - but I'm just assuming that. With all of the problems you had with Gertie's skin and overall health, wouldn't you want to know a little bit more about a breeder than to buy a dog, sight unseen, over the internet and potentially have the same type of problem because of poor breeding? I have had byb dogs in the past, but I've been able to go to the breeder to actually see the parents and the litter so that I had SOME sense of what I was getting. I mostly got lucky, but both of them had health problems in old age. It sounds like you have already fallen in love with this little one, but if you can't go there in person to see the dog, try to at least get some recommendations from people who have her dogs. The "seller" should give you her "friend's" name if she is a reputable breeder.

_________________
Emma - 6/23/10 -
Waylon (non-cocker, terrorist) 2/1/01 -

Shiloh - 4/5/95 - 5/23/11 RIP, sweet girl


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:12 am 
Offline
Forum Legend
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:40 pm
Posts: 746
I heard of these over six years ago, as the back yard breeder was from Oregon area and would drive to meet in Sacramento area if you didn't want to drive all the way up from the bay area. The add would be in the Sacramento Bee.

As the Zim family had found out getting a show dog with all the testing and paper work doesn't guarantee health. it still ended up with problems.

I hate to say it, the rescues do a great service, but there is a reason that the dogs are there. It will take more time and effort to rescue a dog. Oprah did a show years ago about the Amish selling dogs as livestock. They would never have a dog in their house.

My wife's father was the same way until he met our Ollie. At one time the gray squirrels were rats. Now at 93 he has turned around, he feed the squirrels, birds and Ollie. He can be in his house. In fact he sees why Ollie is a house dog.

At the dog show last weekend a friend had a black female cocker three years old that was the smallest cocker I ever saw.

Years ago at another dog show one male was so big they had to find the height gauge to see if it met the standard, well he past the height test.

I do know a breeder that just had puppies here in California. Parti color, three white and black, and four as I call them reds.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:33 pm 
Offline
Active Forum Member
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:43 pm
Posts: 116
Our Sophie weighs in at 18 lbs on a good day! Daisy wieghs in at about 35 lbs and the other two are somewhere in the middle. However, they are all about the same height. The Good Lord makes'em in all shapes and sizes! :run :run :run :run


Attachments:
File comment: Daisy & Sophie
daisey&sophie4.jpg
daisey&sophie4.jpg [ 48.16 KiB | Viewed 884 times ]

_________________
Mark & Beth

Obedient Servants to -

Minnie Me 01/15/06-
Daisy 10/01/07- (Gotcha Day)
Ellie 01/28/08- (Gotcha Day)
Sophie 02/12/08-

Waiting at the Bridge

Precious 05/20/95 - 12/1/07
Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:42 pm 
Offline
Active Forum Member
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:12 am
Posts: 37
TinaP wrote:
Rose: Please don't take this the wrong way because I don't intend to be judgmental with what I'm going to say. It sounds like this person is not near you - but I'm just assuming that. With all of the problems you had with Gertie's skin and overall health, wouldn't you want to know a little bit more about a breeder than to buy a dog, sight unseen, over the internet and potentially have the same type of problem because of poor breeding? I have had byb dogs in the past, but I've been able to go to the breeder to actually see the parents and the litter so that I had SOME sense of what I was getting. I mostly got lucky, but both of them had health problems in old age. It sounds like you have already fallen in love with this little one, but if you can't go there in person to see the dog, try to at least get some recommendations from people who have her dogs. The "seller" should give you her "friend's" name if she is a reputable breeder.


Not taken the wrong way, I completely understand what your saying. The seller lives three hours from me and said she'd meet me halfway if I want to meet the little lady first. I wouldn't buy a dog sight unseen (unless I was in a really bad way for getting a dog and saw one of those "holy crap, he needs help!" rescue dogs. My brother's Yorkie is one of those, walked right over to the neighbor and said "give me that dog or I'm calling the police). No, I'll see her before I get her. I will ask her about the breeder as well, I can't make it down there until the weekend anyway. Plenty of time to ask questions and research. Thank you all for your advice. :)


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:17 pm 
Offline
I Rescue Cockers
 Profile

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:27 am
Posts: 1704
I agree, beware. You are saying she is "sweet" but you haven't even seen the dog yet. Why does the breeder not have you see where she has been raised? Another red flag. Again, there are so many great cockers in rescue whose personalities are already known and can be matched to your home.

_________________
Deborah in South Carolina

Hannah-black/white, 06/01/02
Tonka-black/tan, 04/24/13
Roxi-Boston terrier, 05/28/2007 (grand dog)

Tucker-blue roan and tan, 10/24/02-02/12/13 (rest in peace sweet boy)

"Cockers make my heart smile."


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:08 pm 
Offline
Active Forum Member
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:21 pm
Posts: 216
I'm going to say this because holding it in gives me a stomach ache. I am all for ethical breeders but I have a huge issue with mini or "teacup". Namely that there is NO SUCH THING. There are small dogs bred to small dogs or runts bred to produce small dogs who may or may not be healthy because of their size or poor genetics. Check the problems with teacup breeding to see what happens when you breed too small. And yet people still are breeding and selling. Good cocker breeders breed to meet breed standard and produce sound, healthy dogs. I'd not fall for the "small cocker needs a home line." Bad breeders breed to feed on the popular trend and the money it brings, i.e. miniature dogs. Buying more dogs from them just gives them more space to breed. If it's a matter of size then get a dog that's naturally a different size.

Quote:
Because they're so tiny, these dogs have fragile bones that can easily break. It's easy to step or sit on one. A responsible owner needs to supervise teacup dogs 24/7. Their small size alone creates constant danger from things falling on them to other pets in the home. Many will have congenital and genetic health concerns. Respiratory problems, heart problems, digestive problems, hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), problems with the trachea collapsing or a permanent soft spot on their head caused by the cranial bone not completely forming. Dislocation of the knees, water accumulating on the brain, blindness, seizures, deformities, Leg-Calve Perthes disease (a degenerative disease of the hip joint) portosystemic shunts (an abnormal vessel also called a liver shunt. The dog's circulatory system bypasses the liver which is where the blood is cleaned). Their internal organs can be underdeveloped and their small mouth size has trouble accommodating all of their adult teeth which can lead to dental problems. Teacup dogs use up a lot of energy and calories just trying to keep their body temperature normal and can become malnourished even though they're well fed. A simple bout of diarrhea can leave them dehydrated which can be life threatening.

Buyer beware of breeders who guarantee their teacup puppies will be tiny. No caring and responsible breeder will make that promise because a dog's adult size can't be determined when they're still a pup. Size depends on genetics and you can get an idea of how big a puppy will be by looking at their parents and grandparents and knowing what the breed standard is for a specific breed.

http://voices.yahoo.com/teacup-puppies-buyer-beware-hidden-financial-health-6311618.html?cat=53

IF they register the dog it's through an alternate listing since the size isn't recognized which is another huge red flag. Save yourself the heartache and hazzards and rescue from a reputable source, not a bad breeder trying to make space.

_________________
Mom to:
Max "the ninja"- Am. Cocker Sp. G-day 3/17/2009
Charlie "the middle child- Orange Tabby G-day 7/4/2005
Sadie "the princess"- Grey Calico G-day 9/14/1996

http://recycledrover.blogspot.com


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:49 am 
Offline
Active Forum Member
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:12 am
Posts: 37
Thank you, I have never heard of "mini" or "teacup" cockers, which is why I came here. Figured you all would know better and be able to steer me in the right direction. Thank you for the link, trying to find "mini cockers" on google gives you breeders but no info on the practice or anything like that.

Ashley C wrote:
I'm going to say this because holding it in gives me a stomach ache. I am all for ethical breeders but I have a huge issue with mini or "teacup". Namely that there is NO SUCH THING. There are small dogs bred to small dogs or runts bred to produce small dogs who may or may not be healthy because of their size or poor genetics. Check the problems with teacup breeding to see what happens when you breed too small. And yet people still are breeding and selling. Good cocker breeders breed to meet breed standard and produce sound, healthy dogs. I'd not fall for the "small cocker needs a home line." Bad breeders breed to feed on the popular trend and the money it brings, i.e. miniature dogs. Buying more dogs from them just gives them more space to breed. If it's a matter of size then get a dog that's naturally a different size.

Quote:
Because they're so tiny, these dogs have fragile bones that can easily break. It's easy to step or sit on one. A responsible owner needs to supervise teacup dogs 24/7. Their small size alone creates constant danger from things falling on them to other pets in the home. Many will have congenital and genetic health concerns. Respiratory problems, heart problems, digestive problems, hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), problems with the trachea collapsing or a permanent soft spot on their head caused by the cranial bone not completely forming. Dislocation of the knees, water accumulating on the brain, blindness, seizures, deformities, Leg-Calve Perthes disease (a degenerative disease of the hip joint) portosystemic shunts (an abnormal vessel also called a liver shunt. The dog's circulatory system bypasses the liver which is where the blood is cleaned). Their internal organs can be underdeveloped and their small mouth size has trouble accommodating all of their adult teeth which can lead to dental problems. Teacup dogs use up a lot of energy and calories just trying to keep their body temperature normal and can become malnourished even though they're well fed. A simple bout of diarrhea can leave them dehydrated which can be life threatening.

Buyer beware of breeders who guarantee their teacup puppies will be tiny. No caring and responsible breeder will make that promise because a dog's adult size can't be determined when they're still a pup. Size depends on genetics and you can get an idea of how big a puppy will be by looking at their parents and grandparents and knowing what the breed standard is for a specific breed.

http://voices.yahoo.com/teacup-puppies-buyer-beware-hidden-financial-health-6311618.html?cat=53

IF they register the dog it's through an alternate listing since the size isn't recognized which is another huge red flag. Save yourself the heartache and hazzards and rescue from a reputable source, not a bad breeder trying to make space.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:24 am 
Offline
I Rescue Cockers
 Profile

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:27 am
Posts: 1704
If you go to Yahoo there is information about there being no such breed as a miniature cocker spaniel and the risky healthy issues that may occur. I will let you read it for yourself.

_________________
Deborah in South Carolina

Hannah-black/white, 06/01/02
Tonka-black/tan, 04/24/13
Roxi-Boston terrier, 05/28/2007 (grand dog)

Tucker-blue roan and tan, 10/24/02-02/12/13 (rest in peace sweet boy)

"Cockers make my heart smile."


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:30 am 
Offline
Forum Legend
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:40 pm
Posts: 746
If I was after another dog I would get one from a person showing that breed at AKC dog shows. Why? They spend lots of time with their puppies they get them use to the clippers and it's sound. The puppies are round strange people and lots of other dogs.

We have had two back yard breeder cockers our best is a dog that didn't like the rink at three months. Today I know he would be a killer out there.

Now one thing as a young puppy get it use to the massaging the body thing doing stretches this helps them to relax and play with the paws this could help getting those nails trimmed later on in life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE7jc4rcsR0

If you want to recuse that is find also.

Happy fathers day

Joe


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Small cockers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:19 pm 
Offline
Active Forum Member
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 8:17 am
Posts: 84
Location: The Shoals, Alabama
A few years ago while visiting our son in TX we went to the Canton Trade Day event. Many, many dogs and puppies (all kinds of animals) were for sale. I saw a sign with an arrow pointing to a fan cooled tented cover announcing 'miniature cocker spaniels'! No way, I thought, no such thing. Horrors! Some numbskull had been experimenting with these so called designer breeds and had bred cockers and long haired miniature chihuahuas.
These poor babies were deformed. Their little front legs were much shorter than the rear, almost like a raptor and their movement was painful to watch. My big mouth, as DH says, flew open and I asked the lady sitting next to the pens if these were her puppies and then she told me about the cross breeding and how it had not come out like she had hoped but at $100 they should sell. Big mouth told her she might be charged with animal cruelty breeding dogs that resembled kangaroos and had difficulty getting around. I was ready to lambast her when DH took me by the elbow and dragged me away. I was upset that he was mad at me instead of the woman. Not my business he said. Maybe not but if I see something so drastically out of kilter and puppies bred for money, then arrive deformed, my big mouth will open.
Don't know the circumstances behind your little dog. Perhaps you've been able to discover more.
I advise caution over heartache.

_________________
Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies and horses
First joined Zim's 5/21/07
Mom to Kady, black 6 yr
C J (Calamity Jane) buff 5 yr
Cappy buff 14 wks
Have Boo, Manny, Honey, Nicholas, Rocky, Dino and Molly
waiting over Rainbow Bridge


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  




Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
This forum is owned and operated by:  Jim Zimmerlin  
Donations to help pay for our web server costs can be made here